孔子與杜威博士暢談

A Dialogue between Confucius and Dr. John Dewey

Confucius: Welcome, Dr. Dewey! Is it not delightful to have friends coming from distant quarters?
孔子：歡迎，杜威博士。有朋自遠方來，不亦樂乎？

Dewey: Indeed, it is delightful, Master. It is a change of pace from my daily life in the United States.
杜威：真的非常高興，大師。正改變了我在美國生活的節奏。

Confucius: According to the research done by my disciples, you are called one of the most influential philosophers and educators in the United States. I am honored that you can come to visit my humble house.
孔子：據弟子研究，你是美國最有影響力的哲學家和教育家。很榮幸你能光臨寒舍。

Dewey: To borrow your own words, fine words and an insinuating appearance are seldom associated with true virtue. Hah, hah, hah, just kidding.
杜威：借你所言，巧言令色，鮮人矣！哈哈，說笑吧。

Confucius: I am almost offended. If the scholar be not grave, he will not call forth any veneration, and his learning will not be solid . . . Have no friends not equal to yourself. Even my student, Tsang, said, "I daily examine myself, . . . , whether, in intercourse with friends, I may have been not sincere."
孔子：幾乎冒犯。君子不重，則不威，學則不固．．．，無友不如己者。曾子曰，吾日三省吾身，為人謀而不忠乎？與朋友交而不信乎？傳不習乎？

Dewey: Thank you, sir. You are too grave to have humor. Let me ask you a sincere question, then: What is the Great Learning? That is, what is higher education for?
杜威：多謝。大師非常嚴謹，不容半點幽默。問你一個嚴肅的問題。何謂大學？高等教育為何？

Confucius: What the Great Learning teaches, is to illustrate illustrious virtue; to renovate the people; and to rest in the highest excellence.
孔子：大學之道，在明明德，在親民，在止於至善。

Dewey: Could you elaborate further?
杜威：願聞其詳。

Confucius: The ancients who wished to illustrate illustrious virtue throughout the kingdom, first ordered well their own states. Wishing to order well their states, they first regulated their families. Wishing to regulate their families, they first cultivated their persons. Wishing to cultivate their persons, they first rectified their hearts. Wishing to rectify their hearts, they first sought to be sincere in their thoughts. Wishing to be sincere in their thoughts, they first extended to the utmost their knowledge. Such extension of knowledge lay in the investigation of things.
孔子：古之欲明明德於天下者，先治其國；欲治其國者，先齊其家；欲齊其家者，先修其身；欲修其身者，先正其心；欲正其心者，先誠其意；欲誠其意者，先致其知。致知在格物。

Dewey: Yes, extension of knowledge lays in the investigation of things. And then?
杜威：對，致知在格物。然後？

Confucius: Things being investigated, knowledge became complete. Their knowledge being complete, their thoughts were sincere. Their thoughts being sincere, their hearts were then rectified. Their hearts being rectified, their persons were cultivated. Their persons being cultivated, their families were regulated. Their families being regulated, their states were rightly governed. Their states being rightly governed, the whole kingdom was made tranquil and happy.
孔子：物格而後知至，知至而後意誠，意誠而後心正，心正而後身修，身修而後家齊，家齊而後國治，國治而後天下平。

Dewey: So the conclusion is . . .
杜威：結論是...

Confucius: From the Son of Heaven down to the mass of the people, all must consider the cultivation of the person the root of everything besides.
孔子：自天子以至於庶人，一是皆以修身為本。

Dewey: Very philosophical. (Big grin.) As pragmatic as I am, I preach on more practical learning.
杜威：哦，很有哲理。我卻很實際，我教實用學習。

Confucius: When you know a thing, to hold that you know it; and when you do not know a thing, to allow that you do not know it; this is knowledge. Please state your position, Dr. Dewey.
孔子：知之為知之，不知為不知，是知也。請杜威博士明言。

Dewey: One of our central themes of pragmatism is that philosophy should attempt to solve human problems rather than being occupied with speculative metaphysics. Truth is tentative, a warranted assertion rather than universal and absolute.
杜威：實用主義其一要旨，哲學能解決人類問題，而不停留於形而上學。真理只是暫時的肯定，而非普遍和絕對。

Confucius: Sounds like I am talking. (Grin.)
孔子：如我所言。

Dewey: (Chuckle.) No, no, no, listen further, Master. I believe that truth is derived from human experience. It involves the testing or verification of an idea by acting upon it and determining if the consequences of such action resolve the particular problem.
杜威：非也，且聽下文，大師。我相信人類經驗中得到真理，並可從解難中檢驗。

Confucius: Do you also call it Great Learning?
孔子：大學耶？

Dewey: No, Master. It is experimentalism. We examine institutions and values in terms of their response to the changing circumstances of American life. We argue that no longer could institutions and values rest on traditionalism and maintenance of the status quo.
杜威：非也，大師。此乃實驗主義也。我們審視制度和價值，看它們如何應對美國生活上的改變，並非認為要保留什麼傳統的制度和價值。

Confucius: I can see I am in trouble here. You completely reject my traditionalism. Five thousand years of Chinese culture go down the drain. (Sigh!)
孔子：看來身陷困境。你完全拒絕我的傳統主義。五千年中華文化付諸東流。

Dewey: I am sorry for that. That is what I see and what I believe. I have lived through a series of momentous events that shaped the patterns of modern life. It is not easy to be a ninety-three-year-old man.
杜威：僅此致歉。此乃吾所見，此乃吾所依。我曾經歷塑造現代生活的種種大事。對９３歲的老人來說，也非等閒。

Confucius: Talk about turbulent life. You should have been in the era after my life -- the warring nations and factions in the later Chou Dynasty.
孔子：且說動盪人生。你該生於我往後的年代－春秋戰國的年代。

Dewey: Listen to this. In my life, I have seen two World Wars, not to mention the American Civil War when I was a toddler. I saw the United States went through a great transformation from a predominantly rural and agricultural economy to one that was industrial and technological.
杜威：別提美國內戰，我曾經歷兩個世界大戰。看著美國的農業鄉村經濟轉變成工業技術為主導的經濟。

Confucius: I envy you that you live in a great country in its prime time.
孔子：能活於這個偉大國家的黃金年代，惹人羨慕。
 
Dewey: Indeed, no doubt about it. I have lived through the major political transformations of the progressive movement, the Great Depression, and the New Deal. Right now the United States is one of two great world powers in the age of nuclear weapons and energy.
杜威：無容置疑。從大蕭條，到新政，政治不斷改革。如今美國成為世界兩大強國之一。

Confucius: Look at what the Communists have done to the great people of China! I can see the Chinese culture is on the edge of a disaster.
孔子：看看共產黨所作所為。中華文化瀕臨災難邊緣。

Dewey: Back to my progressive learning. Education is a process of intelligently solving problems using the scientific method rather than the study and mastery of bodies of knowledge organized into subjects.
杜威：以我的進步型學習來看，教育是一個充滿智慧的過程，以科學方法解決困難，而並非研究或掌握某些知識。

Confucius: Interesting ideas indeed. But isn't it true that, in some schools, teachers just skimmed the surface of your philosophy? It was said that they took certain key words and phrases such as "learning by doing," "the activity method," "problem solving," and "children's interests and needs" and designed units and lessons around them. These educators found a certain liberating appeal in these specific parts of your work without accepting your whole philosophy.
孔子：有趣，有趣。某些學校教師僅僅略讀你的哲學。可有此事？有人說，他們摘取某些關鍵單詞和短語，如“實幹中學習“，“活動方法“，“解決問題“和”兒童的利益和需求“的經驗教訓，設計一些教學單元。他們只取其法，而不信其道理。

Dewey: It is sad to say that it is true. But these things happen when your ideas are implemented widely. Isn't it also true that the rulers throughout the Chinese history used your traditionalism to defend their status of quo?
杜威：實，太可悲。此事何曾不發生在你身上？在位者，誰不以你的思想來捍衛自己的地位？

Confucius: (Sad face.) It was true. I used to say that to rule a country of a thousand chariots, there must be reverent attention to business, and sincerity; economy in expenditure, and love for men; and the employment of the people at the proper seasons.
孔子：（一臉無奈）誠然。道千乘之國，敬事而信，節用而愛人，使民以時。

Dewey: There you go!
杜威：大師終於明白!

Confucius: They always quoted my saying, like, "He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn toward it."
孔子：為政以德 譬如北辰 居其所而眾星共之

Dewey: You advocate an emperor state.
杜威：大師主張天子國家。

Confucius: I understand that you advocate a democratic society as an environment most conducive for the application of the scientific method and for the creation of a truly sharing community. But you have to realize the era of my time. And you cannot deny that if the people be led by laws, and uniformity sought to be given them by punishments, they will try to avoid the punishment, but have no sense of shame. If they be led by virtue, and uniformity sought to be given them by the rules of propriety, they will have the sense of shame, and, moreover, will become good.
孔子：你也主張民主社會，最有利於應用科學方法，來創造一個真正分享社區。但是你要知道我的年代。你不能否認道之以政，齊之以刑，民免而無恥；道之以德，齊之以禮，有恥且格。

Dewey: You are absolutely right. People that are as famous as us are bound to be misquoted sometimes. (Both sigh at the same time.)
杜威：對對對。如我們出名的人物常被錯誤引用。 （兩人同時嘆息）

Confucius: Can I say that your experimentalism and pragmatism in a certain degree lead to the materialism in the United States?
孔子：我可否說你的實驗主義和實用主義某個程度引領美國到唯物主義？

Dewey: I protest. It is misquotation and definitely a misconception. People tend to forget that my philosophy goes back to the ideas of Plato and company. In my book, The Quest for Certainty, I examined Western philosophy's tendency to structure reality into two dimensions. One was perfect and unchanging and the other was temporary and changing. Philosophers such as Plato concentrated on the perfect world but neglected the world of human experience. Plato argued that reality was based on the form of good, from which all ideas were derived. I may say that Plato and you are twins in another life. (Big grin.) Anyway, based upon this belief in two worlds, philosophy in the Western world emphasized the perfect world, which was beyond human experience, and ignored the reality of the world of everyday life. I just redirect it to the empirical world of everyday experience and advised human beings to deal with the problems of life there. Is it materialistic, Master?
杜威：抗議。誤用誤解。他們忘了我的哲學來自柏拉圖。在我的追求確定性一書，發現西方哲學兩大趨勢。一個是完美不變的，另一個是暫時變化的。哲學家如柏拉圖集中在完美的世界，但卻忽略了世界人類的經驗。柏拉圖認為，現實是基於良好的形式，並產生其所有想法。我可以說，柏拉圖和大師是兩個世界的雙胞胎。無論如何，基於這兩種信念，西方哲學強調完美世界，這是超出人類的經驗，而忽略了現實世界的日常生活。我只是重定向到日常經驗世界的經驗，並表示人類要處理生活上的問題。大師，這是物質主義嗎？

Confucius: I may be wrong there, but to correct the society ills in the modern American life, can the American take some advices from us?
孔子：我可能有錯。但他們能否聽取我們建議，修正現代美國社會的問題？

Dewey: Please enlighten me.
杜威：請指教。

Confucius: The current problems of American society were created by social choices. They are not individual moral dilemmas but results from the failures of society's institutions. My notion of "li," which means ritual, also refers to the everyday way one relates to others in the world. If we see that the forms of social life have a kind of ritual element to them, we view institutions differently. Americans on the whole don't have that sense. Everything for Americans tends to be viewed as utilitarian, or may I say, pragmatistic.
孔子：社會的選擇導致今日的社會問題。並非個別道德的兩難局面，而是社會制度失衡。我所說的禮，雖指儀式，也指現今世界人際關係。如果我們見到不同的社會生活型態中存在儀式這個元素，我們只是以不同方式看待制度。美國人整體來說沒有這個意識。對於他們，什麼都以功利眼光來看，或者是否實用。

Dewey: Are you attacking me again? (Reluctant grin.)
杜威：又諷刺我？


Confucius: May I continue? Although there was also a counter-cultural belief that any social form or ritual is constraining and must be knocked down, that very rejection of social forms is itself a social form. It's hard for Americans to see, for instance, that in order for a friendship to be maintained it has to have a kind of ritual form to it. Otherwise, it's so easy to be exploitive. The American society has some social rituals and forms, but relative to Chinese societies, the Americans don't value or cultivate them.
孔子：我可否繼續？雖然有種反文化理念，認為任何社會型態或者禮教都是吃人，需要摒棄，但反社會型態也是一種社會型態．美國人很難理解，維繫友誼也要維持某種型態，否則容易被剝削。美國社會也還有一些社會禮儀和形式，但相對於中國的社會，美國人不重視或加以培養。

Dewey: Hmm . . . , I shall give it some thoughts.
杜威：對此，我有一些想法

Confucius: Please do, Dr. Dewey. As I like to preach, "Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous."
孔子：請．如我所言，學而不思則罔，思而不學則殆．

Dewey: I have learned today from you, Master. We shall get together and chat more another time.
杜威：今日獲益良多，願將來促膝長談．